Topic for Debate : Power Level Chart?

[Raditz]

Just because numbers for a power range guideline would be nice. (That's imo, take it or leave it, I could care less.) Plus I was bored. Like really fucking bored, and ready for bed.

The power numbers for the Age 784 were a little murky, because mostly what I wound up finding were Buu Saga (Z:BS) and Bebi Sage (GT:BS) numbers. That's a timespan of 15 years to estimate.

I mostly used Vegeta to figure that 66.66% of his Z:BS numbers added to said numbers would do the trick, since the GT:BS numbers show him doubling in strength (as did Goku) between Z:BS and GT:BS. And thus, followed by the number trend that seemed to follow with the SSJ levels and how far ahead of him Goku is and how Gohan may have trailed behind due to a more calm lifestyle.

**Spiritual power, which is shown via the use of ki based attacks, is tied to one's combat strength. Normal warriors get x2 the strength for normal ki attacks and x3 for signature attacks. Warriors with a focus on druidism and shamanism get x4 the combat strength for normal ki based attacks/spells and x5 for signatures (to make up for their lack of physical power). Being caught off-guard by an assailant takes the hit full on while having your defenses up cuts the possible damage in half.**

Unit : m = million (ie 250m = 250,000,000)

Bardock
250m
Turles
250m
Nappa
125m
Raditz
75m
Toma
180m
Selypa
200m
(Somewhat generous, considering none have hit SSJ but with 20 to 50 years in Hell with nothing better to do than fight plus having their bodies, they had to have some progression. Not to mention, they're still quite beatable by most of the normal cast. Of course, Raditz is well behind, comparable to 18, give or take. It just wouldn't be Raditz if he weren't the one riding the short bus, right? Turles was given an equal standing with Bardock, since it was taken into consideration that while Turles was Might munching, Bardock was training. Nappa can take comfort in the fact that he was included and worth almost 2 Raditz.)

Vegeta
Base - 360m
SSJ - 410m
SSJ2 - 460m
Goku
Base - 410m
SSJ - 460m
SSJ2 - 510m
SSJ3 - 560m
Gohan
Base - 310m
SSJ - 360m
SSJ2 - 410m
Trunks
Base - 200m
SSJ - 250m
SSJ2 - 300m
Goten
Base - 175m
SSJ - 215m
SSJ2 - 275m
Piccolo
250m
Uub
85m
(May or may not have been generous to Gohan, Trunks and Goten, as this makes them stronger than GT proportions, but I figured that it would decline from here due to slacking in the five years on the way to GT levels, etc. Gohan had gone up, but it didn't appear to be by any significant amount so I kept him along the Buu saga trend that he trailed Vegeta by 50m.)



DISCUSS!

[Tomana-Mana]

I actually kind of agree with the numbers here for Bardock and the others. At first I was thinking that they should be stronger, then I remembered that 9000 was a big deal in the Vegeta Saga, and that Bardock was considered the third strongest saiyajin at a power level of almost 10k, with King Vegeta at 10k.

After I got off work and re-read this, I went and looked up Frieza's power level to compare these to. Frieza, in his final form, had 120m. I then started laughing because it meant that even Nappa could theoretically beat Frieza.

Btw. I admit that I squeed when I saw that Selypa was second behind Bardock/Turles in power level. She's the most badass bitch in hell!

[Lambi: Pan = 100000000000m]

^So inclinced to agree... AHEM!

In seriousness though, with the characters in hell, I kind of agree with those power levels, as Nappa spends more time haunting Vegeta then training, and has only been in hell for about 20 years or so. I kind of felt bad for Raditz then also remembered that it's a VAST improvement and that he's focusing more on his druidic abilities, which focus less on ki power level and more on internal/spiritual energies and natural energies. So he might be riding the short bus in power level, but he's starting to show that he has own abilities that make him a reckoning. (Such as Turles-Chimp.)

Btw, Nappa's M.I.A. right now, she's going through finals and such at school.

I've never been TOO exact on the power levels of the main hero cast, other then knowing that Goku/Vegeta ran pretty close at times, and that Gohan had the potential to become stronger but let himself die down a bit. The only thing that gave me pause was Trunks. Are we talking Mirai or Kid? I think that might be something that should be seperated, or at least labeled, since they're now two different entities and appeared in different sagas. Yeah, headache, I know, but we could make Gohan do it. I'm guessing you mean Kid Trunks there since we don't really know what goes on with Mirai after his return to his time.

I'm seriously loving this because it's really giving me a chance to look at the power levels and figure out where different Customs stand. Personally, I want to say that, excepting a few, Ikikesans are going to be around the 30k area to the 20m area at the most. It's a wide range, but Ikikesans have the advantage of being able to draw from a seperate power source to power themselves up, and are EXTREMELY resilient on the ground. The 30ks would be the weaker, lower-class, 'citizen' types of Ikikesans, and, excepting the Shichimi Togarashi family (Royal family) 20m is probably going to be where the strongest monks/defenders are. That's also after 30 years of training to protect themselves and secluding themselves from around them, and even then, it would probably be a rare Ikikesan that got higher then that. It's actually really hard for me to figure out where their power level would be, considering that most of the Ikikesans are druids, similar to Raditz, and may not be scaled along the same level.

Looking at my customs...

Pan: 1000000000m (According to Lambi) - Probably about 20m-30m, give or take. She's been training since she could walk and had the advantage of having Goku as a trainer from when she could walk, and didn't have Chi-Chi shoving books down her throat every chance she had. If she wasn't only 5, I'd push for more.

Tomana: A measley 4k. Why? Because she hadn't been training. At. All. Not unless Razburi has been training her. She makes up for it in pure energy though, since she's a hyper, agile little monkey, and with her boom-boom bombs. I figure that would have been the power range of a normal saiyajin before the planet went boom as well. It's a bit higher despite her not training because it seems like the partial breeds grow stronger much faster.

Selypa: I like the number you put. 200m.

Pepper: I... really have no idea for Pepper. She's an Ikikesan, and is one of their fastest ones to boot, and is a warrior and not a druid, though she does have some racial druid abilities and can use druid techniques. She's been training since a child, and began training intensively for the tournaments since her first one at 16. She's really got a Vegeta, or even Gohan, personality of wanting to become stronger.

... I'm done ranting now.

[Raditz]

Part of the factors I considered for the people in Hell is that they don't really have certain access to things the main cast had. No Gravity Rooms, senzu beans, dragon balls, Hyperbolic Time Chambers and most likely healers like Dende. If they had the same access to such things like the main cast, I'd say they would come real close to significantly rivaling them.

I'll be honest when I say Mirai slipped my mind when I worked on the list. But in my defense it was almost 9am and I was not all there. As far as where he would stand in comparison, it's debatable due to how his timeline worked. By the time he returned and destroyed the androids, it's debatable whether he continued training or focused more on rebuilding. No Buu, Cooler, or Janemba attacks for him to work against like the others too.

During the Cell Game, he was sitting at 225m for SSJ, which puts him almost on par with present/kid Trunks, which makes sense since present Trunks has a combo of trying to live human life and Vegeta nagging him to train since he was young. Given his more serious attitude and playing on the side of caution, he might have maintained his training after going back. I think he would sit around the same level as his present self, weaker if he focused on rebuilding Earth or stronger if he was more focused on staying at his best for defense.

As for Ikikesans, I'd say make a list from Pepper to maybe the strongest. I almost want to say she should be around Raditz's level if you like, since she seemed to peak Vegeta's interest. Plus like you said, she has a drive to get stronger which would give her the initiative to work for it. But all that's up to you.

[Son Gohan]

I was just looking at some pretty accurate power levels on this site here, and there's a few things I just wanted to point out/ correct/ and interject towards...

First off, I just wanted to say... that I don't know if you're just tossing in the numbers, and saying "here's where they are", or if you're trying to guesstimate at what they should be based off of what they were in previous sagas. But yeah. If you look at the link in this post, at the Kid Buu saga, you'll notice that Goku's power level in his SSJ3 form is a lot higher than what you actually have. It was actually 720m. Where as SSJ2 Vegeta was only at 280m. However, over the course of the 10 year period, I could see Vegeta being at where he is now... though with Goku, I'd imagine he'd be even higher than the 720m. Goku's base power was around 90m, but his SSJ3 was 720m, so I'd assume his SSJ form would prolly be like 270m, his SS2 form would prolly be 540m, and then the SSJ3 would be 720. Of course, as I said, you'd still have to factor in the power level gained from this ten year period. So... my guess would prolly be... something like this for everyone:
______________________________________________________________________________


Goku:
Base: 140m
SSJ: 320m
SSJ2: 590m
SSJ3: 800m
Vegito [Base]: 900m
Vegito [SSJ]: 1.08b
Vegito [SSJ2]: 1.25b

Vegeta:
Base: 100m
SSJ: 280m
SSJ - Ascended Saiyain [100% power]: 360m
SSJ2: 630m
Vegito [Base]: 900m
Vegito [SSJ]: 1.08b
Vegito [SSJ2]: 1.25b
_____________________________________________________________________


[Gohan's a little weird, because if you look at the fusion saga in the link I showed you, it says most of the people during this fight had power levels in the billions. And while I can understand this, because of everyone fusing and whatnot... what has me confused, is that Gohan's power level in his mystic form is said to be 5.2 billion. Something doesn't add up there, so for the purpose and sake of fairness, I'll redo his power level >.>;]

Gohan:
Base: 120m
SSJ: 300m
SSJ2: 570m
Mystic: 790m


Goten:
Base: 175m
SSJ: 265m
SSJ2: 400m
Gotenks Fused [Base]: 400m
Gotenks Fused [SSJ]: 500m
Gotenks Fused [SSJ3]: 710m


Trunks:
Base: 200m
SSJ: 290m
SSJ2: 425m
Gotenks Fused [Base]: 400m
Gotenks Fused [SSJ]: 500m
Gotenks Fused [SSJ3]: 710m
___________________________________________________________________________


[Piccolo's another odd one, because the last time you see him was in the World Tournament Saga, and his PL was only at 16m. Though, he was more than likely suppressing it greatly. Given that, and his no doubt continuous training, I'd prolly have to say that his power level would prolly be a little lower than what you originally had.]

Piccolo:
220m
_____________________________________________________________________________


[Mirai Trunks would prolly be the most difficult to figure out, as the last saga you see him in is at the end of the Cell Saga series. However, I know it was stated that there was a five year time skip in his timeline, where he was 23 [the age I'm using for him], and he easily defeated the Cell of his timeline. I know for a fact that Trunks had continued his training, because of all the stuff they say about him in games and the like, and since I'm basing my Trunks off of the game version, he's slightly more "upgraded", than the original one. Feel free to let me know if you see anything you don't agree with please. =] ]

Mirai Trunks:
Base: 180m
SSJ: 360m
Ultra SSJ: 460m
SSJ2: 620m
SSJ3: 760m
_____________________________________________________________________



Like I said, I don't know if you were just spit-balling the power levels to get an averaged guess or whatever, or if you were basically saying "These are the power levels", but I just wanted to toss my 2 cents in. If you noticed, the ones I didn't change were the ones in Hell. This was simply because I wouldn't even know where to begin. Going off of Base stats alone, I'd have to say they're actually fairly good guess/estimates. Hell, if you wanted, you could probably even shoot all of em up about 50m ::shrugs::

My biggest concern about the numbers I have, is that Gohan would still be stronger than Vegeta. And while I know Gohan didn't really train very much, and that's pretty much ALL Vegeta did... I just don't know how I would fix this. If you look at the charts in the link I gave you, it's always shown as Gohan being stronger than Vegeta, except during the Bibidi saga, when Vegeta became Majin Vegeta, but that was for obvious reasons. Help with this matter would be awesome! ><;

But yeah, input and constructive criticism for this would be greatly appreciated, as I was basically just guessing too @_@. ^-^

[Bardock]

On Radish-chan's list :

She doesn't generally pull stuff out of her tail so she got her initial numbers somewhere. In any case...

Hm...hm.

Turles needs to be 1b...Wut?

Okay, being serious now. I can find those agreeable. I like the spiritual power idea. Though I might scale Vegeta, Goku and Gohan back maybe a little. Maybe 50 a piece?

On Gohan's list 2 :

That site made my eyes want to bleed. I can't say I'm entirely with the accuracy on it. But then again, I've seen like...five variations on these power level deals after Frieza so could really take or leave whatever we come up with.

Her Hell list vs. your base power list for the guys would have people getting nuked before they get a shot to go SSJ I think. lmao Which would be funny as hell. I could go for one-shotting Goku.

As for Gohan vs. Vegeta, I say make them dead even perhaps. If he was past Vegeta before, then Veggie caught up. Not that it matters either way to me, Gohan is still the bookworm of the bunch.

The GT numbers the site you listed has basically the same as what you put there in a few places, but what the GT numbers there say :

Son Goku - 110,000,000

Trunks - 21,000,000

Goten - 19,000,000
Super Goten - 76,000,000

Gohan - 35,000,000
Super Gohan - 140,000,000

Vegeta - 140,000,000
Super Vegeta - 280,000,000

Everyone but Vegeta sank like a bunch of fucking bricks in GT apparently? lmao Either way, these lists feel a little better to me, as they don't show the hybrids hitting the bottom of the barrel.

General idea to come to a consensus :

Go with the middle ground.

[Raditz]

Like I stated in the title, this is a topic of debate, so if you're worried about stepping on someone's toes, don't be. Cause I'm not. I'll trample the shit out of someone's toes, I don't care.

That was actually one of the four sites I went to. I'll be honest when I say that I missed the GT list but when I saw the GT list this morning it made me lol. I can't find the one site with GT levels I had seen but in any case, I had gone mostly with those numbers. The GT numbers had been double what the Buu saga numbers had been so like I said, I had added 66.66% of the Buu numbers in said Buu numbers and scaled the hybrids back a little since they're a little more than their hardcore fathers.

As for the Gohan and Vegeta numbers on your list, I have no clue how to shift that around really. Could go with Luna's idea on making it even, well, hn...Technically, outside the base levels and that mystic level, I think Vegeta outdoes Gohan as far as the SSJ levels. So actually, I wouldn't even sweat that.

lulz @ Luna

Yes, those definitely look like brick numbers. That's kind of scary. The one site was a little more generous on the GT levels.

You're going to make us do more math?! WHORE. *shakes a fist at Luna*

[Bardock]

I AIN'T MAKIN YOU DO SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!

[Raditz]

Well...

*can't stop laughing when she scrolls past that now*

[Son Gohan]

@ Bardock

I know the site looks questionable at best, but I was actually looking at all the numbers up until the Future Trunks Saga of the Cell series, and they were all spot on with what was going around during the show [Gotta love them scouters]. So, my assumption would be that the rest of the numbers would be fairly accurate as well. As far as the fusion numbers went, I pretty much spitballed a guess on what Vegito would be, and then scaled back Gotenks SSJ and SSJ3 forms, as they'd be at 1.5b and 4.5b respectively if I stuck with normal numbers. And technically, Vegito in his base state would be 26b, so I don't even wanna imagine what his SSJ forms would be @_@.

Truth be told, I didn't even look at the GT numbers, since Raditz had said the GT numbers weren't even used, and the %'s were added to the end of the Buu saga numbers. And, as far as the Hell peoples goes, they are fairly strong in their base forms, but then again... name one DBZ movie (Or TV episode for that matter, really) where they didn't need to go SSJ or higher to defeat the enemy? I think if they got into a fight, it would be fairly accurate, and it would even stay true to the show in a sense. It would force that RP'er to go Super Saiyajin, just like it would in the series/ movies... because "Their foe is too powerful!" or something like that... though, their difference in power wouldn't warrant a one-shot KO >.>;

[PAN!]

In order to stun you all with my amazingness, I'm posting on fuckin' Pan this time.

Truth be told I like aspects of both lists that Raditz and Gohan posted. I also like cake. *waggles eyebrows at BARDOOOOOOOOCK* Also, what the hell woman? I started laughing my ass off and it's too early in the fucking morning for that.

I do like Gohan's reasons for the lower base numbers, though we don't want them so low that they get nuked. I don't want the Hero cast to be able to fend off the Hellions without going to another form. Frankly, I wanna see my Selypa go "HOLY FUCKING SHIT!" at seeing people go SSJ. Not to mention, if there's going to be a fight between them, that would give them a bigger chance to go SSJ.

I, however, prefer Raditz's lower high-end scale numbers, just because it makes it a TON easier to make villains strong enough to fight them without having them: A) So fucking strong that they make Chuck Norris and TechnoViking look like fucking Hello Kitty and sunshine and daisies; B) Getting nuked by the main cast with a sneeze. C) Gives the Hellion cast/Customs cast a chance to be the hero for once. Yeah, I know. Canons should be the focal but it doesn't mean that we can't give our customs a chance to have fun. There is no possible way we can find completely true canon numbers because we're going to find like 50 different accounts on different sites, so I'm in the boat of taking a bit from each side.

Even if we scale them back a bit too much, we still have canon reasons for some characters not to be too strong. Some of them are easy. Trunks, Goten, Gohan, and a few others would be distracted by normal lives. Hell, even Vegeta might have taken a greater hand in raising his kids after his change of heart in the Buu saga and spent a fraction more of time with Trunks and Bra, which could have cut his training down by a bit. Even Goku would have been affected, since canonly, he was training with Pan fairly frequently, and, no matter HOW awesome Pan is, that's not a great work-out, especially when he probably trained Goten occasionally and spent time with Chi-Chi. And Gohan obviously went to school, got a degree in psychology and pornography, and had a baby. That's cutting time down. Characters like Yamcha, who are apparently off making fighting schools and following Roshi's path, (I think in either GT or the online game or something, it's stated that Yamcha made the Fighting School of the Tiger, and Krillin took over the Turtle school or something) I would expect to rise, since they're focusing on fighting more then a real life. (Poor Yamcha. After Bulma went for fathead, he was never the same.)

Also.

THEY SANK LIKE BRICKS BECAUSE THEY WERE EATING FUCKING CHOCOLATE-BACON CAKE IN GT!

Ahem.

I'm sitting here in a blanket and no clothes, typing about power levels. WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU ALL DONE TO ME!? I need to get ready for work. And I'm sitting here naked writing about power levels. I AM BLAMING ALL OF YO- Oh hey my phone just went off.

If we DO make their power levels towards the higher end, then we need to find some way to jack up possible villains. I know there's some ideas floating around for Hellions, Turles specifically, but we're going to have to derive a way to jack a villain up to be canonly accurate, like the Tree of Might's evil twin cousin on a far away planet or alien steroids or something. Maybe they all had sex with Gure. I don't know. I'm just more focused on making it easier to make villains cause... Eventually, once we get more people on the site, I'm going to make a plain ol' civillian and a villain. AND I WANT THEM TO KICK ASS! Well, the villain at least. The civillian will just get nuked. A lot. And go "WTF?! T T"

...

I'm going to go get dressed now. Kay?

[Bardock]

OMFG, the one-shot thing was a joke. Though you can't deny Bardock zipping up on Goku and barking 'Here's daddy!' while he knocks him three ways from Sunday would not be hilarious.

Okay.

And the cake I made is chocolate with banana liquor.

BACK to the power level discussion, if you had looked at more than just the numbers, you'd see Radish used the GT numbers vs Buu numbers to figure where the 10/15 year gap more or less sat at. Which would make sense since it would give you an idea as to whether anyone declines or gains. (Even though the source she looked at probably showed double growth as opposed to any significant loss.) Goku and Vegeta gained it looked like and actually it almost looks that on a base level, Veggie outdoes Goku, but the others dwindled. Since numbers are never really given for that 784 tournament besides Goku and Uub, well as I said, you may want to consider GT numbers.

Even if GT sucked monkey ass.

I dunno if we're all that concerned with the fusions. I mean, you would have to think of who would be RPing them, whether new accounts would have to be made in addition to them, etc. That'll be something to worry about later. Not to mention, would Trunks and Goten still fuse anymore anyway? Not sure if we see Gotenks past Buu. I hope not, I hated that little doucher. Not to mention Vegito is in the toilet, as the earring was smashed and no one in their right mind would perma-fuse with Goku unless it was some dire fucking need.

According to GT numbers, even if Vegeta actually spent much time with the kids, he still pwns everyone else. It must be all that toting Bra's shopping around and beating the douchebags that hit on her.

That was Tien and his school of the Crane. Don't give Yamcha credit for ANYTHING. EVAR.

So, with the one site, Goku's power for 784 would fall between :
Buu - 90m and GT - 110m

Vegeta like...trained like a bandit or something? :
Early in Buu - 70m and GT - 140m

Gohan, whose numbers really make me tilt my head and go 'wtf'? Especially since he had a 5.2b somehow in there, then he plummets to 35m later? :
Buu - 25m and GT - 35m

I still say to go with the middle line between these two lists we have here, would make them level with the hellions and on more acceptable levels.

[Bardock]

And don't think I didn't see what you did thar, Pan.

[PAN!]

GWAMPA!... I mean, OLD GEEZER!

Okay back to enjoying my lunch at work. I'll get naked rejoin the debate later.

<3 you Bardockface.

[Bardock]

That's 'The Great Grandpa of Awesomeness' to you, squirt.

[PAN!]

Can we add that to his title...?